Olajumoke ‘Jay’ Abdullah and Kym Oliver from The Triple Cripples.

 

Shades of Noir, UAL

 

Interview by Rayvenn Shaleigha D’Clark

 

Please visit shadesofnoir.org.uk/ to view the full interview.

Shades of Noir Sat down with Olajumoke ‘Jay’ Abdullah and Kym Oliver from The Triple Cripples.

 

The Triple Cripples is intended to be a platform that highlights the narratives of Black and non-Black Women, Femmes and Non-Binary People of Colour, living with disabilities. Originating following a conversation between founders Kym & Jay, together they discuss the lack of representation and visibility of disabled Black women and femmes who are extraordinary members of their individual societies.

 

We would like to thank Olajumoke Abdullah and Kym Oliver for taking the time to speak with us.

 

Please visit our website to view the full interview.

 

To find out more about The Triple Cripples, please use the following:

 

Twitter: @TripleCripples

Website – thetriplecripples.uk/

Instagram – @TripleCripples

YouTube & Facebook: THE TRIPLE CRIPPLES

 

If we dive straight in, it would be good for you both to individually explain who you are, how you introduce yourself and just give a bit more about your origin story and how you found your way to the work that you’re doing.

 

JA: My name is Olajumoke ‘Jay’ Abdullah of The Triple Cripples and one of two co-founders. What motivated me to at least be part of a creation of triple cripples was for the longest time because I’ve been disabled for essentially all of my life there was no such representation. So there was some representation for me as a woman, some representation for me as a black person and there was some representation in terms of disability. But looking specifically at disability, it was always white and more often than not, it was male and for me, there never seemed to be anywhere in any media landscape, be it on television, films, music, advertising, etc. that I saw somebody that lived life as I did and being a child that was essentially raised on media like I consumed a lot of that and there always seems to be like this Akuna or this ‘gap’ where it seems like a lot of people that live life the way that I did fell through.

 

Now as a child, I obviously didn’t have the language to express that, but they just seemed to always be something missing, something lacking. And I couldn’t quite put my finger on what it was. And no matter how much I enjoyed what I was seeing, what I was reading, that always seemed to be this little piece, this little nugget missing. Having studied media, I came to realise what that actually was and for a long time, I had been thinking of creating something like The Triple Cripples, but I never wanted to do it by myself. So it was serendipitous, shall we say, that I happened upon Kym in a very non-stalker-ish fashion – just before she spoke soon following I was like, ‘okay, guess this is something that I’ve always wanted to do’. Because she is not the only person who is disabled – like millions of people are disabled.

 

I think maybe up to 11 billion people around the world have some form of disability, but getting the cultural nuances in there as well feels so necessary and was very important for me.

 

So creating The Triple Cripples as a reference point was always important necessarily because I didn’t want those coming after to do all of that work or negating feelings that they might not be able to quite put their finger on. It’s like there’s something missing, but I don’t know what it is and just trying to continue the work that has been created by those before us and making it very intentional and very specific to people that live life the way that we do because racism, ableism, sexism, it’s everywhere and the is racism in the disability community. Making sure that those who live a life as I do know that ‘yes, there is a larger disability community’, but there is a space within The Triple Cripples where you are centred and by ‘you’ we are targeted an audience who we’re trying to speak to and whose voices were trying to use our platforms to elevate and it’s not an afterthought.

 

KO: Awesome. So I’m Kym Oliver and I am a co-founder of The Triple Cripples. I made this baby with Jay and we’ve been co carrying the baby for a while. So before I encountered Olajumoke unlike her, I wasn’t born with a disability. I’d been disability adjacent at some points in my life, but disability was very much not in my realm of consciousness or understanding even. Perhaps there were parts of my life where I interacted with people who are disabled but even the terminology in that sense wasn’t part of my lexicon because I never had to use it, and this is someone who works in Inclusive Theater and I don’t ever remember using the word disability.

 

But at the same time, there was something about the whole environment that I was intrinsically uncomfortable with, and it could have been a whole host of reasons, but it’s something that when I left, I never had to think about it again cause I wasn’t working there. Right? So suddenly at 25 years-old I’m thrust into a position where my body starts revolting against me and I don’t have a language for it. I don’t have a reference point. I don’t know what is happening, but also no one around me has language for it. No one around me has a reference point to provide me with, and everyone around me becomes alien in the way that they interact with me in the way that they speak to me. The world around me becomes alien because I can no longer interact in the way I used to, and my community – as in the black community – that I was very much part of in a lot of ways or had access to suddenly became somewhere that I was not welcome and for me, it was a very isolating experience.

 

So I, at first I mourned it and I kind of accepted that you know, I was a second class black citizen. I internalised a lot of the kind of ableism that I picked up and that’s the thing about it, ableism is something much like racism that you are taught, you are taught through your interactions. You’re taught through the things you don’t see, as well as the things you see, the things that aren’t said as well as the things that are said. And so a lot of those things became directed towards myself.

 

You spoke about some of the questions that you’re trying to answer within your work in terms of your shared goals, can you speak more explicitly about that?

 

JA: These are questions that have only really and truly existed in teeny, tiny, small little nuggets. So for us, while it is, don’t get me wrong, like it is absolutely all change and so necessary for a number of different communities.

 

In the queer community, for example, there have been discussions. There’s been talk and yes there has been pushed back. You know, like the world is still homophobic. The world is still transphobic and all of that stuff. But discussions have been had on very big platforms. Now, if we’re looking at the world, and we think of it in a purely economic sense because that’s what moves the weld around. Cash rules everything around me. Companies, businesses, organisations have realised that regardless of their own individual personal feelings, the pink pound, for lack of a better world, or the pink dollar is something that is very valuable and highly sought after. So for a lot of people and for a lot of reasons if you are not going to respect me and mine, be it through race, through sexuality orientation or whatever we’re going to take our money elsewhere. Now, this is what really tells you that disabled people aren’t really valued as highly.

 

So for me, in the creation of The Triple Cripples, it’s not so much trying to answer a question, but just trying to pose a statement or say ‘we are here, we have always been here’, and in us trying to create a living archive is just kind of like ‘here is all the proof. This has always been true.

 

KO: Just to add to Jumoke’s point, she said that you know, they’re not trying to quote disabled people at all. And a fair point to note is that disabled disability intersects across all the cross-sections of humanity. You can be disabled and queer, you can be disabled and male, you can be disabled and female. You can be disabled and trans, you can be disabled, queer, black and trans. Like you can be everything and disabled at the same time. So it is actually quite poor legislatively, architecturally, socially, whatever you want to call it, economically to ignore this core group of people that actually are part of what makes the world that is a major minority in a sense. But within that major-minority (a majority-minority or minority-majority area is a term used to refer to a subdivision in which one or more racial and/or ethnic minorities (relative to the whole country’s population) make up a majority of the local population.), there is this group that often isn’t raised even within that conversation.

 

And the thing is, one of the things that we always stress is that Black and Brown people are the world majority. We’re not a minority.

 

We’re a minority in the West.

 

But in these kinds of European and American contexts, but in a world where you are a majority then if you were trying to understand disability in a global sense, there are more disabled black and Brown people then there are disabled, non-black and Brown people. That is a huge majority.

 

If we are trying to create a better world, then we need to create a better world for the people who are most vulnerable. I don’t use the term ‘in need’ as in pitiable no, I mean ‘who socially, economically should be at the centre of our thoughts?’ We should be creating a world that makes sure that they have an equitable experience because that will mean automatically that everyone is catered for. If I make sure that the most vulnerable person is catered for in a way that empowers them and allows them access to their community, to education, to economics, to career, to fulfilment, and all those forms of self-actualisation then nobody else can fall through the gaps. It automatically guarantees a better society with more efficient ways of governing, more efficient ways of working out policy and legislation and structures. Everything automatically becomes more efficient and more inclusive.

 

JA: Kym for President!

 

*Laughs*

I guess then reflecting on what you both have said about how TC poses a challenge, are there any particular kind of resistant moments that you both have had in terms of building the brand and creating a platform that highlights the lives of disabled people of colour that springs to mind?

 

JA: I guess one that we’ve not often, but has cropped up before is our name – Triple Crippled. So, historically cripple has been used as a slur for the disability community and so it was used to reference the odd disabled older or just those who lived life slightly differently to the existing hegemony, wherever that may be. I think it was during an interview actually that Kym had rightly said that as black people, we are also crippled by living within this racist society. It’s a way of hindering or impeding people. Is it not? So for us, it’s unfortunately threefold, which is why we are The Triple Cripples through the intersection of race, gender, and disability. But for us it was, it was not a way to reclaim the word. There was never going to be any reclamation, but it’s just to not necessarily shock people, but to get them thinking and to get them talking. Because for many people, if the name wasn’t The Triple Cripples, if it was ‘by and for disabled black women,’ or for disabled women of colour, nonbinary POC’, et cetera, then it’s like, ‘Oh, I’m not bothered.’

 

KO: I mean you can even use COVID-19 as an example of that as we’re not able to access essential things, socially, isolating already. And now I can’t get the basic things that I need to live day to day and now they’re having screens where you choose this one meagre hour that they (carers, those who are ‘high risk’) can go to the shops and might be able to find something. But what if their carers can’t come at that time. What if, you know, their carer gets sick? What happens to them in this?

 

JA: As Kym rightly points it out, you can pick any example, at any point. And it’s like the same will always be true. Like I recently saw on the news, people asking how are they supposed to live on ninety-four pounds a week? Well, disabled people have been telling you all that it’s not doable, but now because it’s affecting you now it’s an issue. All these, let’s say, reasonable adjustments were unreasonable before people were having to work from home. Trying to say, actually, can I have flexible working hours? Can I do this? It’s unreasonable. It’s unreasonable because it’s you. But now that it’s affecting those that live life non-disabled, now all of a sudden I can move heaven on earth. So these things have always been possible. It’s just you didn’t want to do it for me. Now consider this, they didn’t want to do it for the white disabled community so people like me and Kym who are already seen as scroungers trying to take what they can from the States, you know?

 

So it’s bringing up a lot of questions and making a lot of people feel uncomfortable. Like, I can’t believe you’ve been living like this for so long. But as is always true with anything, I don’t care about that until it affects me. So for us, we get TC rules to make people feel uncomfortable. So how does that make you feel? There’s something, this is a challenge to you.

 

KO: They’re not considered to be ‘whole’ so how many more people who have been previously dehumanised and seen as less than human and seen and treated like cattle, like animals. It doesn’t take much for you to reach a place where someone is calling you a monkey. As black disabled people, if white disabled people aren’t considered as whole human beings and not enough to make educational adjustments, social adjustments, all of these things such as work from home, you know, change the hours, making things more flexible, making things more accessible then what about us? And so it’s essentially important. It’s very important for us to challenge those things by being exactly what we are truly crippled, there you go.

 

That’s the thing that’s really nuanced about race relations. Sometimes it doesn’t come as someone beating you up, calling you in N-word and chucking you in jail. Sometimes it does come as someone making you the token because when people make you the token, it means that no one else can ever get through that door because they’ve made it. They’ve, they’ve closed the door and locked it now because, ‘Oh, no I’m perfect. Look, here’s my token. I never need to change anything.’ Do you know? And that’s the danger of some of the things that at least we’ve witnessed and we wouldn’t want that to be the case. We don’t stand for that anyway, which is why whenever we get an opportunity, we pull in disabled friends to be part of what we’re doing whenever we have an opportunity. And it’s also why we are starting to create a living archive to document the lives, existence and experiences of every person of colour with disabilities who is a woman from a non-binary person across the spectrum because exceptionalism kills representation in a lot of ways. Exceptionalism kills.

 

But at the same time, we do our best to challenge that. And I think being disabled allows us to do that anyway because we’re not socially acceptable in that way. And a lot of people are still challenged by our presence. Just the mere fact that we exist in plain sight is a problem for a lot of people. Like we still get people telling us, ‘no, don’t call yourself disabled’ regardless of watching all of our videos or coming or seeing us in certain places. As in, ‘no, no, no. Don’t call yourself that. Don’t call yourself that.’ It’s a continuous kind of walk and I think as we continue we will only encounter more things.

 

So in terms of combating resistance then, are you very vocal if you feel that someone is being quite deliberately resistant or tokenistic in their behaviours towards you, and how would you actually in the moment deal with that?

 

KO: We weave it into our lectures and our talks. The thing about us, and I think in some ways our disability allows this, is that we are very straightforward. We spit straight facts. Like we don’t mince our words. And the reason I say I dispute as he allows it is because a lot of the time people when you speak, cause it’s the same person anyway. So it’s like we get to say the things that perhaps other black people in our position wouldn’t feel comfortable to say for fear of loss of position, for fear of loss of opportunity, as we have literally nothing left to lose. We are at the bottom of the ladder.

 

JA: Following on from what Kym says, nothing that has been necessary, no fault of civil rights be it a disability, black, human, et cetera, has ever been won by those at the top deciding ‘actually let me do the right thing.’ People have and will need to continue to literally put their bodies on the line because you’re not going to respectability politics your way to getting what you actually need and what your community actually needs. I, as the oppressor, I as the one at the top, I will fight you tooth and nail until I’m not able to do so and you need to use all weapons in your arsenal. You need to use shame, you need to use community, you need to use your numbers because we outnumbered them. But we can be in these spaces of these institutions that are known globally, and that allow that to be the place where we are not telling the truth, and allow that to be the place where we’re trying to make you feel comfortable.

 

So where then do you situate yourself, if at all, in the disability cannon?

 

JA: In terms of what I feel that I fit, I feel that we do need The Medical Model, but we also need The Social Model. But for me, I would put a lot less emphasis on The Medical Model, just purely because The Medical Model gives us a medical description. So for me, I contracted poliomyelitis (also known as polio – an infectious viral disease that affects the central nervous system and can cause temporary or permanent paralysis) so you say that to a doctor and ‘okay, I presume that your life or your body specifically has been affected in a number of these ways because these are the certain characteristics of somebody that has polio. It might affect one of your four limbs. It might cause you respiratory issues’, or unfortunately, polio was known back in the day as the baby killer, and so many young children died. So I don’t think we can completely do away with The Medical Model because yes, you are being disabled by your environment not being accessible, but within yourself (yourself) I still am disabled. There are certain aspects of my body and my lived experience that cannot be completely explained by The social Model. I think for me, we need both, but I would put a lot more emphasis on The Social Model. So let’s say 20/80 favouring The Social Model because I feel that regardless of your disability – and this is where we’ll need people to be a lot more creative and think outside of the box – as in what accessibility means for somebody that has an invisible disability or somebody that has a physical disability, something or learning difficulty et cetera – but that is definitely something that also puts the onus upon the greater society and the powers that be, those that are policymakers, politicians and people that have the power to make the world as accessible as possible because there’s only so much as an individual one can do.

 

KO: I think we do fit in within The Radical Model of Disability because it does take into account intersectionality and it doesn’t do away with the idea of the social framework for disability. But it takes it further in the sense that it says much like what we were saying about the political element of disability and what that means for society to have people that are haves and have-nots, how that affects the economy, how that develops collective consciousness and culture and all those things. I think it takes some of that into account as well.

 

However, the issue that I always have with these models is that often we get really caught up in categorising ourselves. We get really caught up in that but there’s no point of a model if there’s no efficacy, right? So we could call ourselves, Radical Model Disability Activists all day, but if we weren’t living that life, if we weren’t practising it, then it wouldn’t mean anything. I still think there is a place for understanding disability through the models, though I think one of the key factors of The Radical Model is the abandonment of the idea; of having a disability means that you’re impaired. And then other groups distanced themselves from the disability because of what it would mean in terms of superiority or removing themselves from the inferiority of having a disability or impairment. And one of the things that The Radical Model centres is saying that you know, I just am right. I just am another human being in a different iteration. And that doesn’t make me less than and I think that’s one of the reasons why the TC exists in saying that we are here, we’ve always been here. We are just a different iteration of human life. And especially within African cultures, that’s one of the things that we try really hard to talk about is that look we’re just living life in a different way. Our human body is expressing in a different way to what you are normally able to encounter, some of the things that you discriminate against. You discriminate against them because you can see, but if you were to look inside everybody’s body, we all express our humanity; the human form is expressed in a multitude of ways.

 

So, I guess reflecting on what you previously spoke about, are there any writers or artists or theories that influenced the work you do, especially within your talks and your lectures?

 

KO: I talk a lot, but Jumoke is one of the most thought-provoking people I think I have ever encountered in the way she digests information and kind of summarises the world around her and also her lived experience. And she’s a veteran in terms of understanding the social climate of disability as a black woman. Also, the circles that she’s moved in, the places that she’s had a seat at the table as like, and so been privy to certain conversations and understandings that go beyond what a layman would have.

 

Not all heroes wear capes, but you know, she’s definitely one of my heroes in terms of even the way she sometimes challenges my thought process and the way I think, and it brings things to my attention. I think someone else that is quite good at challenging and making you question things is Ericka Hart. She’s very challenging at times. I’m thinking, Audre Lorde, who has written really extensively about sexuality in terms of it being a weapon that can be used by women and understanding how women have been de weaponised by patriarchy, by men. There are lots of people that I’ve read – Toni Morrison, people don’t necessarily mention Walter Rodney, Frantz Fanon and like all of those people. There are things that they’ve said that you may not agree with all of it, but there are things that they’ve said that have expanded my thinking. Dr Llaila Afrika is hilarious, but have really helped me kind of understand something else that I’m going through, may he rest in peace. And the thing about Chimamanda (Ngozi Adichie – author of the 2014 best seller ‘We Should all be Feminists) you know there are so many of us for me to quote.

 

I know Villessa Thompson and the work that she does is fantastic. And actually, do you know who I personally met who actually blew my mind as well – Michelle Daley. We had a panel discussion with her, our first Black Girl Fest we did a talk and I sat in and Michelle spoke. I don’t know, she didn’t speak for more than 15 minutes, but in that 15 minutes my whole thought process was revolutionised – like the wealth of knowledge and expertise and kind of understanding within her was mind-blowing. And I think that’s also important for us to kind of listen to our elders and honour them as well, who are living the experience, who have lived the experience. Yeah.

 

JA: Agreed. I’ve definitely learned a lot from Kymberly (Oliver) to give her full name. I say this all of the time owing to meeting Kym and obviously very quickly us co-founding The Triple Cripples. As Kym rightly said, I’ve been a veteran in disability for a very, very, very long time but it was usually just me by myself. I always shrunk away from that part of myself. But I’ll also add, bless her soul, Maya Angelou who was pretty honest with that part of her life and just to remind us of the parts of our lives and the parts of ourselves that we have been told are not good, are bad, that we should be ashamed of and it’s what has made us who we are.

 

So to live our truth in all facets that it may be.

 

KO: Hmm. Emma Dabiri covered that in her talk at the WOW Festival about a book. In ‘Don’t Touch my Hair’ she covered the fact that black people, in every iteration, have been told everything about us is wrong. Even the process through which we reiterate ‘Oh, you know, my hair takes too long because blah, blah, blah…’ And you don’t realise that the idea of a part of you not being deserved time or being resentful of the time that you have to spend on a part of you that is just the way it is deeper than just ‘Oh, you know, I’m stuck for time because of capitalism…’ Capitalism feeds into anti-blackness in that way.

 

So you expressed this previously ‘be the change that you want to see’ and I just wanted to see if you could expand on that a little bit more?

 

JA: So for us, it’s not enough that we all are talking ‘the talk’, but being about it but obviously this isn’t something that we’re going to publicise. Stay true to when nobody’s watching. Nobody’s listening, nobody’s looking. Your message has to be the same all the way throughout because you cannot try to tell us that you should have done that. Now, this isn’t to say that people don’t make mistakes and obviously hindsight is 2020 but these are the things that you will remember because at some point or another it’s going to catch up with you because it always does. So we tried to stay true to ourselves and true to what we’re trying to do and if that is any disagreement like it’s something that we’ll always talk about. I think that’s what has helped us continue so well for so long. So I think that that’s really, really important.

 

KO: And, you know, as they say, the ‘path is laid with good intentions’. And I would add for compromise, it’s so easy. You start with one little compromise and you’re like ‘Oh no, just be this one’ and then you stop and then you carry on, and then the next thing, bit by bit, many drops of water make a mighty ocean. And, I think that’s the other thing, that means that what you do will have longevity, but also that you’re being part of the change that you want to see. You want to see people not making those compromises. Not making compromises for small change. Money is transient. It comes and it goes. We are here. We will always be here. And if we say we want to change the world, if we say we’re trying to create a world where there’s equity for people of colour, for black people, then we have to be having a collective consciousness. We cannot afford to compromise on those things or to not be the change we want to see because you might say, ‘okay, it’s just to me, you know, I am a Legion of people. My life affects others.

 

So I guess that leads me on to my final question to kind round off this interview. What are some of the things that you’ve learned in organising The Triple Cripples, and what advice would you give to those wanting to do the same, or maybe advice to your younger selves when you were starting out?

 

JA: For those looking to do the same, I would say first, don’t look to do the same. They’re not going to be able to do the same because the TC is very specific to Kym and I. It’s specific to our experiences, owing to our backgrounds and our histories. I would say start from where you’re at. So I always say this to Kym, but ‘perfect is the enemy of good’. Don’t wait until things are super sparkly and shiny and just exactly the way you want it. You’re not going to be able to do anything for anyone, including yourself. If you are doing something that you believe in and you know it will have a positive impact on not only yourself but those around you, then start from where you’re at. Consider your networks as well. Also, allow yourself to make mistakes because you will make mistakes along the way and that’s how you learn. That’s how you grow. And have fun.

 

KO: Yeah. I would say if someone wanted to start their own thing, be authentic. There is no fake business in the world. Like, be authentic. Your authenticity is the key to your success in a lot of ways, and people being appreciative of what you have because that comes through in everything you do; your authentic self. And if you don’t know what your authentic self is, find it, you know? Also, don’t put too much pressure on yourself. Do what you can according to what you can do when you can do it, and be satisfied and happy with that and learn to celebrate your small wins – you did 10 minutes today. Fantastic. Celebrate, relax. Treat yourself. You’ve like life is hard enough. Like you don’t need to be beating yourself up constantly, especially for something that you want to do that is supposed to be pleasurable as opposed to feeding you.

 

It’s a learning process.

 

KO: What about for younger Jumoke? What would you say?

 

JA: For younger Jumoke, I don’t know. I would say don’t get so bogged down by those around you. I think I would have tried to do that a lot sooner because I was always proud of being Nigeria and I was proud of being Uruba. I would have let that shine through like a lot quicker and not let the ‘Daves’ and Paula’s of the world try to make my heritage and my culture seem less than.

 

KO: I would say to younger Kym is to be present in her moments. I was very concerned with ‘the perfect outcome’ and my imperfections. I was very focused on my imperfections. So much so that it often stifled my progress in my creativity and also my development. I was so concerned with all these flaws that were placed upon me by not just by being a big black child, in a world of whiteness that was so small.

 

Blackness is huge, right? It can’t fit into this small world, this small, white world, and that’s okay. And that in itself, like that juxtaposition. I wish that I had understood this earlier. And so by living in the moment, I have been able to embrace the things that were wonderful around me. But what I do think is that little Kym needed joy and the fulfilment and the peace that comes from being able to see your reality as opposed to the anxiety and the trauma that comes from constantly looking towards a future that you can’t define and constantly trying to pick apart what you think is wrong with your present. So yeah, I would just definitely say to live and embrace the moment; to live in the moments and to be satisfied with those moments.